The Ancient Tradition

00:00

Music

00:10

You’re listening to the Ancient Tradition. A Wonk Media Production. Music provided by Joseph McDade. He is your host, Dr. Jack Logan.

00:29

Welcome to the ancient tradition. I’m your host, Jack Logan. It’s great to be here with you today. If you’re joining us for the first time, we’re thrilled to have you here. You’re in for the theological ride of a lifetime. I have to give you a friendly heads up though, because you’re gonna get a lot out of today’s episode kind of as a standalone, but know that you are tuning into a discussion that’s been unfolding for over a year and a half now. The podcast is

00:59

designed with a progressive structure in mind, kind of like a college course, where each episode or each class builds on the concepts and discussions of the previous classes. To truly grasp the depth of the ancient theological ideas that we’re exploring, I highly recommend that at some point you listen to the podcast sequentially. This approach will allow you to follow the evolution of our discussions and

01:27

see how each episode contributes to a deeper understanding of the theological tenants taught by the ancients. And by doing this, you’re gonna get a richer and a more nuanced perspective of the material that we cover. For example, today we’re gonna explore some pretty important theological ideas. Many of them, if you’re a new listener, are probably gonna be new to you. These ideas were as theologically familiar to the ancients.

01:55

as they are theologically foreign to us today like primordial waters, sea serpents, special weapons, chaos and order, battle between gods, the lit of hell and dancing. Now some of these ideas may sound familiar to you because you’ve read about them in a fantasy novel or something or you’ve seen them in epic movies or even acted them out in a popular video game but

02:23

What you likely don’t know is that these novels and movies and video games are remnants of a deeply significant theology. A theology that the ancients themselves trace back to the very dawn of time. And a theology that we can trace back to literally the very first known written religious text on the planet. The Keshe Temple Hymn dated to 2600 BC.

02:49

If you’d like to listen to an audio recording of the Keshe Temple Hymn, it’s pretty short. You can find it on our sister podcast, The Ancient Tradition Audio Rit. All of this is to say that in past episodes, we’ve developed the theological significance of things like the primordial waters and sea serpents and special weapons. And it all comes straight from what the ancients themselves wrote in their ancient texts.

03:18

They’re all worth listening to, the episodes, because they’ll give you a much more in-depth understanding of why the things we talk about on today’s episode are significant. I absolutely guarantee that you’ll learn something new in each episode. Take a road trip or something somewhere beautiful and binge listen on the drive there. I promise it will greatly expand your understanding of the world you live in. With that, let’s jump in.

03:48

In today’s episode titled, The Lord of the Dance, I wanna pick up where we left off in our last episode and share with you an absolutely remarkable narrative found in Hindu scripture that brings together in a single account so much of what we’ve discussed to this point on the program. And it ties all of those stubborn bits directly to dance.

04:14

After you listen to this account, it’ll be really, really difficult to discount the contention that the religions of today are remnants of a religious tradition that was revealed to human beings as the ancients tell us by a divine source in deep antiquity. Before I jump into that remarkable account, I want to illustrate an important point. A point I just alluded to when I referenced fantasy novels, epic movies, and popular video games.

04:44

On this program, we focus on the stubborn bits, those elements of the ancient tradition that we can trace all the way back to the dawn of time and which stubbornly persist through the centuries right up to today. An example of this is sea serpents. I’ve already developed this quite a bit on the program, so I’m not gonna rehash the important theology behind the sea serpent again, but the sea serpent is a great example of a stubborn bit because we can trace it all the way back to ancient times.

05:13

to the likes of the Egyptian Apophis, the Mesopotamian Tiamat, the Greek Python, and we can trace it right up to today in the likes of the Loch Ness Monster, Godzilla, and the basilisk snake in Harry Potter. And really to all of the terrible monsters and dragons that we see in modern media. What we notice when we study the concept of the sea serpent over time is that

05:42

the narrative or story around the sea serpent moves from a religious context to a secular context. The meaning behind the sea serpent devolves. It loses the deep religious theology behind it as it moves into the realm of popular secular storytelling. Over time, the theology behind the sea serpent is either lost or the form in which we get it is highly corrupted or degraded. Yet,

06:11

the stubborn bit is still there. The sea monster is still alive and well today. Loads and loads of fantasy novels, video games, and movies center around slaying this awful monster. So if you know what you’re looking at, you can see clear indications of its ancient religious past, the theological context from which it originated. And as hard as some storytellers might try,

06:37

they can’t actually ever fully extinguish the religious subtext. Everyone still knows, or still seems to know, that when Harry Potter battles the basilisk snake, the terrible monster, that it’s a battle between good and evil. So even though Harry Potter is a deteriorated version of the original, everyone, at least subconsciously, seems to still know that Harry Potter

07:06

and the Harry Potter series is about and is addressing deeply religious concepts. Another great example of a stubborn bit and its subsequent deterioration is the Ring Dance. Archaeologists and anthropologists have traced the Ring Dance all the way back to Mesopotamia and Greece. But we clearly see secularized versions of the Ring Dance alive and well right up to this day.

07:35

in folk dances all over the world. When Germans dance around the Christmas tree in the town’s center plaza, or when elementary children dance around the maypole to celebrate the end of the school year. Or how about a nursery rhyme? Yes, a nursery rhyme. See, if you’ve studied the ancient world and the religious context behind the ring dance,

08:05

You can see a corrupt remnant of this sacred dance even right up to today in a nursery rhyme. You just have to know what you’re looking at. Little children across the United States and Europe still play this game every single day. And what nursery rhyme and game am I talking about? Well, let me help you out a little bit. I’ll give you a big clue. The rhyme actually starts with the word ring.

08:34

Yes, ring. Did you figure it out? Or do you need another clue? If you need another clue, the second word is around. Ring around. Yes, a corrupt secularized version of the ring dance can be found in the nursery rhyme, ring around the rosy. The rhyme as most commonly known goes, ring around the rosy.

09:03

pocketful of posy, ashes, ashes, we all fall down. Now you might be thinking to yourself, wait a second, I thought that nursery rhyme was about the bubonic plague that killed millions of people in 1665. That’s actually a common belief, but it’s an entirely erroneous belief. In 2014, Steven Winnick, a folklorist at

09:30

the American Folklife Center of the Library of Congress dug through all the annals of folklore at the Library of Congress and he found that several variations of the rhyme existed before this commonly known version, which he says, quote, none of which fits the plague interpretation, which means that the plague was not the origin of the rhyme. It had a different origin. Steve Round,

09:59

an English folklorist and librarian found a similar thing. And he said, quote, the plague origin is complete nonsense. Another guy by the name of John Solo, who looked into the rhymes background, concluded that the rhyme had no meaning at all. He says, quote, when it comes to the meaning of the lyric, it’s a nonsense song. The kids sang when playing a game. It doesn’t mean anything because they didn’t need it to. And it stuck around to this day because it was

10:28

easy to remember. Now, John’s conclusion is easy to make if you don’t know what you’re looking at. So what is the rhyme’s origin? Well, like John Solo, folklorists will tell you that they don’t really know. They just know that it isn’t the great plague. They’ve come up with a theory or two, and Stephen Winnick of the Library of Congress refers to one of these theories as the

10:57

theory of survival, which I really like. And this theory holds, quote, that cultural materials such as nursery rhymes preserve important information from the past that was otherwise forgotten. In this theory, a shard of pottery, a riddle, or a child’s jingle could be the key that

11:26

is to interpret or decode the cryptic message within these fragments.

11:34

This is exactly what I’m arguing too. When we take a closer look at the rhyme, we find some interesting clues. For example, what are the children making a ring around? Rhyme tells us that they’re making a ring around a quote, Rosie. Well, what in the world is a Rosie? Believe it or not, Rosie is the French word for rose tree.

12:03

Yep, these children are holding hands, making a ring, while singing and dancing around a tree. Now, why in the world would these children be singing and dancing around a tree? Well, if you’ve been listening to the program for a while, you know exactly why these children are dancing around a tree, forming a circum-punked. But I’m betting that very few of the folklorists who study this rhyme know why these children are making a ring, dancing around a tree.

12:32

You’d have to study the theology taught in the ancient tradition to know that. If you’d like to see an early depiction of children dancing and singing, ring around the rosy around a rose tree. I’ve posted one to the webpage for this episode. Let’s turn to the second line now. Pocketful of posies. So what is a posy? Well, a posy is the English term for a small bouquet of flowers or in singular form.

13:01

single flower. So a pocketful of posies refers to a pocket full of flowers. Well, what flowers? Obviously they must be referring to roses. Roses that they plucked from the rose tree around which they are circle dancing. In other words, the children seem to be referencing loading their pockets up with the flowers, the fruit of the tree, as part of the dance. Now think on that.

13:33

When we turn to the third line of the rhyme, it doesn’t seem to make much sense. Ashes, ashes. Why would the children say this? Well, folklorists have found that this part of the rhyme varies quite a bit. The very first known print version of the rhyme was published by Anne Stevens in 1855, and it actually says, awake, awake, instead of ashes, ashes. And awake, awake is a whole lot different than ashes, ashes.

14:03

I don’t claim to know what is supposed to be meant by awake awake. I could come up with a lot of possibilities, but I’d be willing to bet that if we could find even older versions of the rhyme that we’d find that it originally said, amen, amen, right there instead of awake awake. I of course have no evidence for this. We don’t have earlier versions, but it just makes sense.

14:31

with what we know about the antiphonal chorus nature of the ring dance is performed in the ancient world, where members of the ring would sing the words of the song after the leader sang them, like a chorus does today, which is very similar to saying amen after a prayer. And what about the last line of the rhyme? We all fall down. Well, in one of the earlier variations of the rhyme, this line is actually all.

15:00

bow down. And in another variation, it’s all kneel down. My guess is that these versions are a lot closer to the original. It makes complete sense that the dancers in the ring would show reverence to the tree by kneeling or bowing, and that over time this degenerated into the more corrupt form that we’re familiar with today of we all fall down. So if I’m

15:30

ring around the rosy pocket full of posies. Amen, amen. All bow down.

15:41

What is clear is that when we combine the words of past variations, the popular nursery rhyme ring around the rosy with the circular formation of the dance around the rose tree and the choral nature of the singing that accompanies the dance around the tree, that this is a secularized corruption of the sacred ring dance performed by adherence of the ancient tradition in the ancient world.

16:07

This far into the podcast, you should be beginning to notice that so, so much of the world around you has its roots in the ancient tradition, from nursery rhymes to dragons to choirs to dancing to kings to architecture to swords to literature, and I can go on. I wanna continue this discussion by examining the presence of the ancient tradition in the Vedic tradition, in Hinduism, especially as it relates to the ring dance.

16:35

The count that I’m gonna take a look at is pretty darn amazing because it combines so many of the stubborn bits that we can trace back to the ancient tradition in a single account. It’s pretty darn amazing. Before I jump into doing that though, I wanna quote David Leeming, you remember him. He’s my go-to mythologist. Leeming makes a really important point about the interplay between universal mythic themes or motifs.

17:05

those stubborn bits and their cultural expression. He says the following on page 108 and 109 of his book World Mythology. Quote, to come to life, myths require cultural details. Greek myth is what it is because of Greek culture. Sumerian mythology clearly reflects the details of Sumerian culture.

17:35

That said, there are certain elements or motifs that exist in nearly all cultural mythologies and that can be said to transcend cultures. It’s fair to say that within the cultural expressions are motifs or narrative structures that cross many cultural barriers. Basically, Leeming is telling us here that he

18:03

along with a cadre of mythologists have identified certain universal themes or motifs, which I argue have their origin in the ancient tradition. Present in world mythology, yet different cultures tend to express those universal themes, the stubborn bits, in uniquely cultural terms. So it’s crucial when we analyze a particular myth to distinguish between the universal theme, the stubborn bit, and the cultural expression of that theme.

18:32

And we’re going to do a little bit of that today as we look at this extraordinary account and found in Hinduism, known as Lord Krishna and then Nagaraja Kalia. Sounds like a loaded title, doesn’t it? Before we get into this account, we need to take a look at the key players, Krishna and Kalia. In Hinduism, Krishna is one of the most widely worshiped and revered.

18:59

Hindu gods. He’s believed to be the incarnation of Vishnu, one of the principal deities in Hindu’s Trimurti, which is a trinity of supreme beings consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. If you’re familiar with the Christian tradition, you should see some obvious parallels here. In the iconography of Hinduism, Krishna is pretty easy to identify. He’s usually depicted with blue skin playing a flute.

19:28

and we’ll talk about the importance of the flute in our next episode. Kalea, on the other hand, was a terrible, multi-headed, venomous snake that lived in water. The monstrous sea serpent spent his days poisoning the river and terrifying the people who lived near the river. Kalea is sometimes referred to as Naga Raja. Naga is the word for snake in Sanskrit,

19:58

is the word for Lord or King. So when you put the two words together, Nagaraja, it means Lord or King of the snakes. And since he lives in water, we’re clearly talking about a sea serpent here. Now that you know who Krishna and Kaliya are, let’s jump right into the text as it’s found in the Bhagavata Purana, which constitutes part of sacred Hindu literature. In Sanskrit,

20:27

Bhagavata means follower or worshiper of Vishnu, who as we just saw is a member of the Hindu Trinity and of whom Krishna is an incarnation of. And Purana in Sanskrit, as I’ve mentioned before, means ancient or old. So we’re talking about ancient or old writings related to the god Vishnu. Scholars believe the Bhagavata Purana was composed sometime between 500 and 1000 AD.

20:58

It’s in the 16th chapter of the 10th canta of the Bhagavata Purana that we find the battle between Lord Krishna and Nagaraja Kalia. It’s one of the most famous stories in Hinduism about the Lord Krishna. We’re gonna read directly from the text starting in verse four. And this comes from the Anandadhar translation. The text reads, quote, in the Kalindi, the river,

21:27

There was a certain pool where Kalea, as the serpent was called, resided, and its water boiled because of the fire of his poison. Birds flying over it would fall dead into the waters. All plant and animal life on the shore died because it came into contact with the poisonous vapor that by the wind was carried from the waves. Let’s stop here for a second to talk about a few things.

21:55

We learned from this text that the awful, venomous king of the snakes, Kalea, lives like we would expect, like most of the awful monsters we see in the ancient world, in water. He is a sea serpent. But why does he live in water? Well, we learned a long time ago in episode number 11, the mysterious primordial waters, that this snake lives in water because those waters represent the vast ocean or sea of chaotic…

22:25

disorganized, disordered elements that filled the pre-creative universe. The sea serpent dwelt there because he was wicked. He didn’t uphold ma’a or zedek or as the Hindu call it, rita, righteousness. And because of that he didn’t have the ability or power to organize the elements into something like a world. So he was relegated to living in the world of chaos, which the ancients symbolized by water.

22:56

Because the sea serpent doesn’t uphold righteousness, the only thing that he’s capable of producing is chaos, sickness, aging, death, and destruction, which is exactly what the Hindu account tells us about the sea serpent. The Hindu tell us this snake poisoned the waters. Poison, which we’ve learned on this program, symbolizes in part thermodynamic entropy, where everything moves from a state of order to disorder.

23:24

And when that happens, the only outcome is death, which is exactly what this text says. It says that when the birds flew over it, they died, and quote, all plant and animal life on the shore died. Everything that came in contact with the snake’s poisonous vapor died. So at this point, everything in this Hindu account is perfectly in keeping with what the ancients taught about two stubborn bits, the primordial waters and the sea serpent.

23:55

There’s a lot more to this, so if you haven’t given the episodes on the primordial waters and the second law of thermodynamics, listen, they’re worth your time. Right here’s a really good time to talk about stubborn bits and the cultural expression of those stubborn bits. In this text, we clearly have a reference to the primordial waters. But farther down in the text, we learned that the Hindu give these primordial waters a specific location, a specific location in India.

24:24

The text tells us that the wicked serpent Kalia lived in the river Yumana. The river Yumana is an actual river in India. In fact, it’s one of the largest rivers in India. It’s a tributary, the second largest tributary of the Ganges River. So this is a great example of what David Leeming means by the cultural expression of a universal motif or stubborn bit. The Hindu take the primordial waters and express it.

24:52

culturally as an actual river in India. Kalea, the sea serpent, is also expressed in cultural terms. There are literally hundreds, if not hundreds of thousands of depictions of Kalea. And almost always, Kalea is depicted as a Naja Naja, which is an Indian cobra, a venomous snake with a large hood, which is native to the subcontinent of India.

25:21

We learned in episode number 15, Sea Monsters, Sea Serpents, and Leviathans, that the sea serpent is not a literal monster that exists. It’s the symbol the ancients used to represent the wicked son of the high God, who was banished from the high God’s kingdom for threatening to usurp the high God’s throne. So when we examine these ancient accounts, we can’t get all wrapped up in the differences produced by cultural expression.

25:51

It doesn’t matter if the sea serpent is represented as an Indian cobra or a dragon or a mythical Leviathan. It still represents the same thing theologically. The wicked son who rebelled against the high god. All right, back to the text. Let’s begin again. In the Kalindi, there was a certain pool where Kalia, as a serpent was called, resided, and its water boiled because of the fire of his poison.

26:21

birds flying over it would fall dead into the waters. All plant and animal life on the shore died because it came into contact with the poisonous vapor that by the wind was carried from the waves. Krishna had descended to subdue the wicked. Seeing how severely the river was contaminated by the terribly effective powerful poison, he climbed in a Kadumba tree,

26:51

tightened his belt and jumped into the poisoned water. Oh, this verse is loaded with great stuff. Here, Krishna, the incarnation of Vishnu, quote, descends to, quote, subdue the wicked one. He sees how the king of the snakes poison is contaminating everything it touches. So what does he do? He climbs a tree.

27:20

the Kadumba tree. At this point in the story, why in the world would Krishna be climbing a tree? I looked through the Hindu literature for an explanation for this and I couldn’t find anything. Commentators don’t seem to know why Krishna climbed the Kadumba tree before he jumped into the poisonous waters. They say things like, oh, he was just in a really playful mood. So like a child, he climbed a tree. Others say he did it to get ready to fight

27:50

Kaliya, which is actually what the text seems to suggest as well. Because once he climbed to the top of the tree, he slapped his arms and tightened his belt like someone getting ready for battle. What these commentators don’t seem to know is that in the ancient world, this little detail of Krishna climbing a tree before going into battle is extremely important. According to the Hindu, this tree,

28:20

was a solitary tree that stood on the bank of the Yamuna River. We haven’t talked about this on the program yet, but in the ancient world, key temples were built along the banks of rivers. For example, in Mesopotamia, in the ancient Sumerian city of Eridu, the temple of Enki, known as Isira, was built on the bank of the River Euphrates.

28:47

The temple stood there at least until 2200 BC when a Sumerian hymn from Iridu was written. The cuneiform tablet on which the hymn was written says this, quote, the temple is constructed with gold and lapis lazuli. Its foundation, which we’ve talked about on the program, on the Nether Sea, Opsus is filled in by the river of Sippar, which is the Euphrates, it.

29:16

stands. O Isira, the name of the temple, may thy king stand within thee. And in Cuneiform tablet 306, plate 3, lines 11 to 15, we read how there was a sacred tree, the sacred Coscano tree in Anki’s temple, which sat on the bank of the Euphrates river. The tablet reads,

29:46

of Enki, his pure and beloved dwelling, the temple. He built for him of his ancient Kiskanu tree, its place he restored for it. Geo-Wittigrim, who examined this text, wrote this of the tree in Enki’s temple, quote, I wish to point out that this tree is erected where Eridu is situated. It is stated that the tree is planted in the sanctuary.

30:15

We are carried to the conclusion that the tree, being a symbol of the deity, is situated in or near the sanctuary. When we read about Krishna climbing the Kadumba tree that stood along the bank of the Yamuna River, we clearly see a connection here to the Cascano tree that stood along the banks of the Euphrates River, a tree which stood in the center of Enki’s temple.

30:46

When we see accounts like this, where a solitary tree sits on the banks of a river, we know the tree represents a holy sanctuary or temple, the sacred dwelling place of God. You already know from listening to this program that the sacred tree, which Wendigrind just says, represents the deity or God, stood in the heart of the Garden of Eden, the garden sanctuary. So when we read of Lord Krishna climbing a tree,

31:13

before going into battle against the terrible King of the Snakes. We know that it signifies more than just a playful pre-battle act. It signifies that he prepared for his battle against the snake by first entering God’s holy sanctuary and second by, quote, climbing or ascending to God’s throne, where we presume from what we’ve read in other ancient texts, that he was given special weapons and armor.

31:42

we saw with Marduk with which he could go to battle and with which he could successfully slay the dragon. Now some astute Hindu may recognize this and just not be stating it. I don’t know because very much in keeping with the ancient tradition, Hindus associate gods with trees. In Hinduism, the sacred tree is usually culturally expressed as the pipell tree, a sacred fig tree.

32:11

Brahma, get this, is associated with the roots of the tree and very, very interestingly, Vishnu, who Krishna is considered the incarnation of, is associated with the tree’s trunk, which will be incredibly significant in a couple of months. At any rate, listen to what Alka

32:39

in an article published in Pharmacognoshew Review titled Kadumba, a miraculous tree having enormous pharmacological implications. He wrote, quote, The Kadumba is one of the ornamental plants with religious significance. It has crucial significance in Indian mythology and religion. Various religions in India have strongly believed that God lives in

33:09

side a Kadumba tree. The Hindu believe God resides inside this tree. This is perfectly in keeping with what we just saw in ancient Mesopotamia and what we saw in ancient Egypt with Osiris whom Isis found embedded in the trunk of a tamarisk tree. So it’s pretty darn significant in this account that Krishna climbs and the word climb here is very important in

33:37

We’ll talk a lot more about it in the future. The Kadumba tree in preparation for his battle against the wicked sea serpent, Kalia. Here’s the neatest part about the Kadumba tree though. The real Kadumba tree. The Kadumba tree that actually exists in India. Get this, it actually has anti-venom properties. Yes, you heard that right.

34:05

the Kadumba tree has anti-venom properties. I quote Davidi again. He says, quote, many Indian medicinal plants are recommended for the treatment of snakebite. It has been found that methanolic extract of the root bark of the Kadumba tree can be used as an antidote against snakebite. Okay, so I kind of geek out when I see things like this.

34:33

I love how the Hindus picked a tree in the real world that had anti-venom properties to be the tree that Krishna climbs before he goes to battle against the venom breathing serpent in the waters. Don’t lose sight of the fact that we aren’t talking about a real sea serpent or tree here. The sea serpent and the tree are symbols used to teach us about spiritual realities.

34:58

What we’re supposed to glean from this text theologically is that Krishna prepared for his battle against the awful Kaliya, the rebellious son, by entering the holy sanctuary or temple where God dwelt, and while there, acquired something from God, from the tree, that could either protect him against Kaliya’s venomous bite or heal him once he was bitten.

35:26

I have to draw your attention here to the healing properties of this sacred tree, which we discussed in depth in episode number 24, Oh Christmas Tree. If you recall, it was with the healing gift of Myrrh, the sap that bleeds from the camphora myrrh tree, that the wounds of the king, the hero, and the pauper are healed, and with which kings and Christians were anointed.

35:55

It’s really astounding that we’re getting the exact same symbolism in India. Here, Krishna climbs a tree, the bark of which can protect and heal him from the poisonous attack of the terrible sea serpent Kalia. We’re getting the same theological message here among the Hindu about the importance of the tree, the protective and healing properties of the tree, and the ability of the tree to help Krishna conquer the dragon.

36:26

If you’re interested in taking a look at an Indian depiction of the Kadumbha tree on the banks of the river Yamuna, you can find it on the webpage for this episode. All right, let’s return to the text. Krishna had descended to subdue the wicked, seeing how severely the river was contaminated by the terribly effective powerful poison. He climbed in a Kadumbha tree, slapped his arms,

36:55

tightened his belt and jumped into the poisoned water. When the snake heard the sound that Krishna produced while he playing like a big elephant with his mighty arms was engaged in whirling the waters around, Kalia rushed forward, unable to tolerate the violation of his territory. Okay, I’ve got to stop here again. I apologize. I know that we haven’t gotten very far in the text, but I have to stop.

37:24

Here we see another stubborn bit. This one directly connected to the creation because remember in the Anuma Elish, Marduk battled the awful sea serpent Tiamat before the creation. Marduk had to conquer Tiamat before the chaotic primordial elements could be ordered into the creation we know as the earth. Here in this Hindu text, we read that Krishna jumps from the top of the Kadumba tree.

37:53

which I’d argue is akin to coming out of the holy of holies or the cracking open of the cosmic egg into the venom-filled chaotic primordial waters. And what does the text tell us that Krishna does once he’s in the waters? It says, quote, playing like a big elephant with his mighty arms was engaged in whirling the waters around. Okay, why would Krishna do this?

38:22

Well, if you’ve read a lot of ancient texts, it’s pretty easy to parse out why. This is a key element in creation narratives. Do you remember in the Japanese creation accounts how Izanami and Izanagi stirred the primordial waters with a cosmic spear? Or how in Mesoamerica among the Maya, Huracan, from which we get our word hurricane, whipped the primordial waters into a vortex? Well,

38:49

Krishna whirling around his arms like a quote, big elephant is the cultural equivalent of the creative act performed by Izanami in Hurrican. You can read more about this in episode number 13, the incomprehensible brooding wind.

39:08

It’s clear from this little detail that the original source for this Hindu account actually contained an account of the battle that took place before the creation. The original creation context of this account will be really important in our next episode. Let’s return to the text. Quote, when the snake heard the sound that Krishna produced while Krishna.

39:34

playing like a big elephant with his mighty arms was engaged in whirling the waters around. Kaliya rushed forward, unable to tolerate the violation of his territory. And while Krishna, so attractive in his yellow garments, note that they’re yellow and as delicate as a glowing white cloud. With the Shravitsa, now

40:02

The Shrivita is really interesting. It’s actually a triangle-shaped mark that Vishnu wears on his chest on the right side. It’s considered auspicious in Hinduism. His smiling, beautiful face and with his feet, which resembled the inside of a lotus. Note the emphasis that the text places on Krishna’s feet here. This is important.

40:30

The text tells us that Krishna’s feet quote, resembled the inside of a lotus. So we’re getting a symbolic connection here between Krishna’s feet and a lotus flower. And I’d love to talk about the feet flower connection, but I’m gonna have to save that for another time. Just keep it in your back pocket. I continue, thus Krishna fearlessly was playing. He was angrily bitten in the chest by him and enveloped

40:59

in his coil. In this verse we see that Krishna is wounded by the terrible Kaliya. Kaliya sinks his venomous fangs into Krishna’s chest. I don’t have time to get into the importance of the wounded hero here, but I wanted to point it out so that you are aware that this stubborn bit is in the text too. If you’re interested in learning more about the wounded hero, you can find a whole episode dedicated to it on our companion website, TheA

41:30

just check out episode number 22, The Wounded Hero. I hope you’re starting to see how nearly every major stubborn bit we’ve talked about on the program is showing up in this Hindu account. Don’t lose sight of how truly amazing this is. This account of the battle between Krishna and Kaliya is absolutely loaded with the ancient tradition. And it’s evidence that Hinduism is a descendant of the ancient tradition.

41:59

Let’s continue. Quote, his smiling beautiful face and with his feet, which resembled the inside of a lotus, thus fearlessly was playing. He was angrily bitten in the chest by him and enveloped in his coils. Seeing Krishna in the grip of the snake’s coil being immobilized, his dear friends, the tenders of the animals were greatly disturbed.

42:28

With their intelligence bewildered, in pain and full of remorse and fear, they fell to the ground for they had dedicated everything, themselves, their relations, their wealth, their wives, and objects of desire to Krishna. The cows, the bulls, and the she calves, with their eyes fixed on Krishna, cried out loudly in great distress while they fearfully lamented in shock.

42:58

thereupon most fearsome ominous disturbances arose in Vraja. This is the name of Krishna’s village. Three kinds of signs to be observed in the sky, upon the earth and in the living beings, heralded imminent danger. When the people see Krishna, quote, “‘In the grip of the snake’s coils being immobilized, the people follow the ground. The animals are…

43:28

quote, greatly disturbed. The animals cry out, they’re in distress, and terrible signs are seen in the sky and on the earth. At this point in the account, the people go to the edge of the Yamuna River. Verse 19 reads, quote, when they at a distance saw Krishna, motionless with the lake enveloped by the coils of the snake body.

43:54

and the cowherd boys lying unconscious in the flooded water with all the animals crying around them. They in their distress were delivered to the greatest despair. Now that their sweetheart was seized by the serpent, the gopies, now gopies are female cow herders, who in their hearts were so attached to him, the supreme unlimited personality, while remembering his

44:24

glances and words were tormented by the greatest agony being deprived of their darling. Holding back Krishna’s mother, they with their eyes fixed upon her son equally pained shed a flow of tears.” The textual emphasis here on women watching the motionless Krishna as well as the textual emphasis on Krishna’s mother is pretty darn interesting because

44:52

It parallels the account given of Christ’s crucifixion in John chapter 19 verse 25, which reads, quote, Now they’re stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. And Matthew chapter 27 verse 55, which reads, and many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him.

45:22

Let’s continue. Krishna put an end to his imitation of the mortal away, the illusion of his mortality, and rose up from the coils of the serpent. This is interesting. The text tells us here that in the moment Krishna lay motionless in the water, he transcended the limitations of the physical world of mortality, of death, which we learned in past episodes as a consequence of the snake’s

45:51

presence and quote, rose up from the coils of the serpent. So we’re getting hints of a resurrection motif here. The text continues quote, by expanding his body, this is Krishna, the serpent was forced to let him go because of the pain. Kaliya thereupon furiously raised his hoods high.

46:18

Hoods here refers to the hood of the Indian Cobra. Multiple hoods here refers to a serpent with multiple heads. Breathed heavily through his nostrils that were like two vessels of boiling poison and stared the Lord in the face with eyes like firebrands. Kalia moving his double pointed tongue to and fro between his two lips. And with his terrible look full of poisonous fire,

46:48

eagerly spying for an opportunity to strike, was by Krishna playfully approached from all sides by moving around him like he was the king of the birds. It’s at this point in the story that things get really, really interesting. What will Krishna do next? The awful snake staring him down, waiting for the perfect time to strike. The battle isn’t over. What will Krishna do?

47:19

Well, you’ll never guess. Just listen to this. Verse 26 reads, quote, thus turning around him, Krishna exhausted him and forced him to bend down his highly raised shoulders. Krishna thereupon climbed on top of the broad heads, and then as the original one, the first spiritual master of all the arts, started to dance.

47:49

So what does Krishna do when the snake stares him down, looking for the opportune moment to strike? Krishna forces the snake to bend his head down, all of his heads down, and he climbs on top of the snake’s hoods and starts to dance. Krishna starts to dance. To the average reader, this doesn’t make any sense. Why would he do this? Why would he start dancing on the snake? But you listeners are no longer average readers.

48:18

For those of you who haven’t listened to our last two episodes, we know that by the word dance, the text is referring to Krishna engaging in some kind of very, very important sacred rite. A rite which we learned in our last episode from Lucian of Samasata was incredibly ancient and of divine origin. On page 63 of the complete works of Plato,

48:46

Plato described this ancient dance as a partnership with the gods. Plato says this, quote, the gods were given to us as partners in the dance and have granted us the pleasurable perception of rhythm and harmony. They animate us and lead us in the dance. Let’s return to the battle with Krishna and Kaliya and see what happens next.

49:16

Krishna exhausted him and forced him to bend down his highly raised shoulders. Krishna thereupon climbed on top of the broad heads. And then as the original one, the first spiritual master of all the arts, he started to dance. His lotus feet in touch with the snake, therewith turned red from the light of the many jewels on the heads.

49:42

Note in this passage how the sea serpent has jewels on his heads. This is keeping with the other accounts that we’ve read of the dragon appearing like gold or having jewels. Recall that those are reminders of the glory the sea serpent or the rebellious son had acquired before he rebelled against the high god. Note also here how the jewels on the wicked Kaliyah’s heads tanked.

50:11

Krishna’s feet the color red. Let’s continue. Pay close attention in this next section to how quote, Krishna’s servants and their wives seem to join in the dance along with quote, heavenly singers and perfected souls, which sounds like what Plato was hinting at by playing drums and singing songs and giving praise.

50:41

The text reads, that very moment, Krishna’s servants arrived together with their wives, the heavenly singers and the perfected souls, the sages and the venerable souls. Taking notice of him being engaged in his dancing, they all were greatly pleased and expressed their joy.

51:05

with playing two-sided clay drums, smaller drums and larger drums, and with songs and flowers and other forms of praise. Whichever of Kaliya’s 101 heads would not bow down, my best one were immediately trampled down by Krishna. The Lord Krishna, who with his kicking feet punished the evil ones, made the serpent that still moved

51:34

but the life of which ran at its end, spit horrible poisonous blood from its mouth and nostrils while it experienced the greatest anguish. Poison oozed from his eyes, and whichever vomiting head that he breathing heavily in his anger would rise, Krishna, while dancing with his foot, forced down into submission. The dance is clearly beginning to take effect.

52:03

The dance is destroying the awful sea serpent. Poison is oozing from its eyes. Its 101 heads are vomiting. Krishna’s dancing feet are forcing the sea serpent into submission. A couple of episodes ago, we talked about the insignificance in the ancient world of the placement of the hero’s foot on the enemy’s head or neck as a sign that the hero had triumphantly slayed the dragon. And here we see the same thing.

52:31

Here, Krishna’s foot forces the sea serpent into submission. In India, depictions of Krishna, his foot on Kaliya’s head, is one of the most popular representations of this text. You can find some artistic representations of this on the webpage for this episode. The text continues. Perfusely vomiting blood, with his numerous hoods broken, and with his body defeated,

53:00

by Krishna’s amazing dancing. I love this line. Kaliya is defeated by Krishna’s amazing dancing. The text continues. Seeing that the serpent got tired of the heavy weight of the heels of Lord Krishna, in whose abnimum the entire universe is found, and this, his umbrella-like hoods, speaking of Kaliya, were shattered by Krishna’s

53:29

trampling. It’s pretty obvious from the text that it was by way of the dance that Kaliyah’s destruction was assured. It was by way of the dance that Krishna was able to slay the dragon. That’s what this Hindu text is teaching us. It’s an absolutely remarkable text in terms of the theology that’s being taught here. At this point, the wicked Kaliyah is on the verge of death.

53:59

the terrible snakes consorts, come and beg Krishna not to kill Kaliya. And what does Krishna do? The text reads, quote, “‘Thereupon Krishna released him, the snake, whose heads were defeated by his trampling feet.'” This is interesting. Through the dance, Krishna defeats Kaliya, but he is not dead.

54:28

The text tells us that Krishna quote, releases him. But what does that mean? For the answer to that, we need to keep reading. Verse 60 reads, quote, The Supreme Lord Krishna said, quote, You, O serpent, must not stay here any longer. Go directly to the ocean with your folk. So instead of extinguishing Kaliya’s life,

54:57

What does Krishna do? He banishes him to quote the ocean, along with his quote folk. Krishna banishes him along with his minions to the realm of chaos, to the realm of chaotic, disorganized, disordered elements, to the only place in the cosmos where he can rightfully belong. Kalia’s banishment to the waters of chaos.

55:25

rather than His permanent annihilation is actually a very important theological point, which we’ll discuss in coming days. In verse 63, we’re told that Krishna left the mark of His feet on the snake. In verse 63, Krishna says this to the wicked snake, quote, You are marked by my feet. That’s one to ponder.

55:52

Chapter 16 ends with the following, quote, immediately after Kalia’s departure to the island in the ocean, the nectarine water of the Yamuna River became free from poison by the grace of the Supreme Lord, who for his pastimes had assumed a human form. Kalia, along with his minions, depart and the land

56:22

is restored. Can you imagine the joy and the festivities that took place after this? I imagine that it was quite a celebration.

56:32

took an entire episode to walk you through this Hindu account to demonstrate how deeply the ancient tradition runs through the Hindu tradition. The evidence here is pretty incontrovertible. I think it’s remarkable. When we focus on the stubborn bits, we see the same theology is taught all over the globe from

57:03

When you saw the title of today’s episode, the first thing that you may have thought of was Ireland and Michael Flatley’s famous production, Lord of the Dance. You might’ve even wondered while you were listening to this episode, if there was any relationship between Flatley’s highly spirited Lord of the Dance, the sacred ancient ring dance, and Krishna’s dancing on the head of the hideous sea serpent, Kyla. And guess what?

57:32

there absolutely is. According to Catherine Burton and Caitlin Buchanan, who studied the origin of Irish dance, Irish dance can be traced back to the Druids. To understand who the Druids were, we have to start with the Celts. The Celts were a group of Indo-European peoples who lived in the territory that we now call Europe as early as 1200 BC. Among the Celts,

58:00

there was a high ranking priestly class known as the Druids. Listen to what Wikipedia says about the meaning of the name Druid. Based on all available forms, the hypothetical proto-Celtic word Druid may be reconstructed as Dru-Wid-Is, whose original meaning is traditionally taken to be Oak.

58:30

knower based on the association of druids beliefs with oak trees. Encyclopedia Britannica says this of the name druid quote their name may have come from a celtic word meaning knower of the oak tree. Of course I find this hugely significant. Wikipedia goes on to say this of the name druid quote

58:59

Nowadays, it is more often understood as originally meaning, quote, one with firm knowledge or a great sage or good knower. Two elements go back to the Proto-Indo-European roots, Daru and Wid, which mean to see. So to know the oak tree would be to know God, like a sage or seer, to see God.

59:29

Okay, so how is all of this connected to the Lord of the Dance? Well, Burton and Buchanan tell us that contemporary Irish dance has its root in the rituals that these Druid priests performed. They write, quote, “‘It is believed the dance was part of pagan rituals “‘performed by the early Druids.'” Now listen to this. “‘They are said to have done

59:58

circular dances around sacred trees. Yes, you heard that correctly. Druid priests used to perform a circle dance around a sacred tree. This was done, we know, at least around 400 AD. And it’s believed that it’s from this ritual dance that Irish dance was derived. According to the Boland School of Irish Dance,

01:00:27

Folk dances similar to the Druid Circle dance were performed once a year at a huge festival known as the Anach. And you’ll never guess where this festival was held. The Bolin School of Irish Dance tells us the following, quote, the roots of Irish dancing come from the Celts and the Druids who roamed the island before the onset of Christianity.

01:00:57

dancing, usually in a circular fashion around sacred trees. Although these dancers are different from modern Irish dancing, traces of the formations and patterns can still be seen. A thousand years ago, music and dance were a huge part of Celtic life. At a fesh, which is a festival, Celtic communities came together to celebrate music and dance at the Hill of Tara.

01:01:27

Then the seat of the High King of Ireland and the epicenter of Celtic life, a huge fesh known as the Anach, the great festival, was held once a year. So where did the Celts perform the circle dance? At the Hill of Tara. This is hugely significant. Do you remember what the Hill of Tara is? This is the exact location in Ireland where the Leofoil.

01:01:55

The phallus-shaped stone stands in the county of Meath in Northern Ireland that we discussed in episode number 36. If you recall, this stone stood in the kingdom of Meath, the kingdom of the middle, the sacred center of Ireland. And you probably don’t remember this, but speaking of the Hilatorra, the word tara is the Anglicanized version of the word tamer. This word is believed to come from the Proto-Celtic word

01:02:25

which you see shares the word tem, which we’ve previously talked about on the program in reference to the Roman word temenos, the Latin word templum in the English word temple. So it’s gonna come as no surprise that tara, which comes from the word temeris, means sanctuary or a space cut off for sacred ceremonies. And what was one of the things

01:02:51

they did at the great festival that was celebrated at the stone at the Laeafoil. The sacred ring dance. So here we are on a hill in the middle of Ireland around a stone that marks the center of the world and the Celts are performing the ring dance there. Here we are thousands and thousands of miles away from India and we’re getting the same theology

01:03:21

Listen to what else the Boland School of Irish Dance has to say. Quote, the carol was a common Norman dance that was performed in conquered Irish towns and villages. The carol involved one singer placed in the middle of a circle of dancers who then followed his singing and danced accordingly. For the next few centuries, dancing naturally evolved.

01:03:51

formations became common. So here we see that chorus aspect of the dance where the leader in the middle sang and danced and then the rest of the dancers followed. But we also learn here that over time the circle dance evolved into line dancing, both of which we see quite a bit in Flatley’s production of The Lord of the Dance. The Boland School of Irish Dance notes quote, religious

01:04:20

traditional cause for dancing. All goes back to the religious aspect. From this, we see the roots of Irish dance is performed in Flatley’s Lord of the Dance, go back to ritual dancers performed by Celtic priests, the Druids. And I, of course, argue like Lucian Samasita that this dance goes back way farther to the first ancestors.

01:04:50

And one more thing, the storyline in Flatley’s Lord of the Dance is in conformity with the ancient tradition too. It’s also in keeping with the battle between Krishna and Kaliya found in the Bhagavata Purana. See, Flatley’s Lord of the Dance tells the story of a mystical figure, the Lord of the Dance, who uses the power of dance to defeat Dandorcha, the Lord of Darkness.

01:05:20

who wants to take over planet Ireland. If you haven’t seen this show, you should. It’s a high energy, wonderful time. There’s a point where the Lord of the Dance and the Lord of Darkness face off and battle each other through dance. And the Lord of the Dance triumphs and restores joy and harmony to Ireland, just like we see in Hinduism and the Bhagavata Purana.

01:05:50

From today’s episode, I hope you see that Flatley’s Lord of the Dance, the account of Nagaraja, Kaliya, and Krishna, the Hindu Lord of the Dance, and the nursery rhyme or ring around the rosy all have their origin in the ancient tradition. Who knew? In our next episode, we’ll talk about how this dance is directly connected to the creation.

01:06:20

That’s it for me. I’ll leave you with the words of William Shakespeare. Knowledge is the wing wherewith we fly to heaven. I’m Jack Logan.

01:06:33

been listening to the ancient tradition. A Wonk Media Production.