The Ancient Tradition

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Music

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You’re listening to The Ancient Tradition.  A Wonk Media Production.  Music provided by Joseph McDade.  Here’s your host, Dr. Jack Logan.

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Welcome to The Ancient Tradition.  I’m your host, Jack Logan.

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Great to be with you today. It’s a wonderful day. I’m glad that you’ve decided to join us for today’s episode. I’m going to just jump right in today. In our previous episode, we saw that in the ancient Near East, the bulk of religious texts in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Canaan, and even the Bible, when read in the Theo historical context of the ancient Near East, attest that God and his wife are the parents of a divine family. In fact, the backdrop

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of the vast majority of ancient Near Eastern religious texts are built upon the theological scaffolding of a divine family. Nearly all of the major figures in the ancient Near East, be it Atum, Osiris, Isis, Horus, or Hathor in ancient Egypt, as well as the earthly Pharaoh himself, or On, Ki, Enlil, Marduk, Ninurta, or Ninhursag in ancient Mesopotamia, as well as the earthly King Naram Sim himself,

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or El, Asher, Abal, Anat, or Yam among the Canaanites are members of a divine family. It’s not possible to fully comprehend the vast majority of the religious texts in the ancient Near East without recognizing how the figures in those texts are directly tied to the larger fabric of a divine family. Nearly every religious text in the ancient Near East attests to the doctrine of a divine family.

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and the divine family constitutes the core construct of the religious traditions we find in ancient Greece and Rome and China, Japan, Mesoamerica, Scandinavia, among others. This makes the doctrine of a divine family a pretty substantial stubborn bit. It’s my contention that the prevalence of the doctrine of a divine family, which we can trace all the way back to the world’s earliest known religious texts, the Keshe Temple Hymn.

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constitutes a pure teaching that was taught in the beginning and which forms a central tenant of the ancient tradition. In our last episode, we saw textual evidence that spoke of God’s wife giving birth to both gods and human beings, indicating that we human beings are the children of divine parents and part of a divine family. In today’s episode, we’re to take a look at some of the myths that are told around the world that attest

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Like we saw in our last episode that we human beings, you and me existed before we came to earth. If you recall in that episode, the ancient Egyptian King Kedi told his son Merikare, his heir apparent that sacral kings or rulers were chosen quote, in the egg before they were born on earth. The text reads quote, he

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refers to God, made for them rulers in the egg. Now the reference here to the egg is quite important because as I mentioned in the last episode, the egg referred to here is the cosmic egg, the egg that was laid by Gengen Wer, the great cackler, the goose who represents God, who by cackling, by divine fiat or by a divine word, commanded the earth to take form. The egg is used here by the ancient Egyptians to symbolize

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the location of God’s home or residence in the cosmos, the divine center, out of which, like an egg, all life emerges. If you’re new to the program and you’d like to learn more about how the ancients used the egg to symbolize the divine center, you can find it in episode number 33, I Found Nowhere to Rest. So when the text refers to God making rulers,

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choosing or electing rulers from among his children in the egg. This indicates that we, God’s children and those who he elected leaders, existed  inside the egg before we were born on earth, which when coupled with the text we saw in our last episode that attested that God and his wife conceived and gave birth to human beings, indicates

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that we human beings were conceived by God and his wife in the divine center and that God’s wife gave birth to us in a way that produced individual conscious beings, you and me.  All of this speaks to human beings having existed prior to having been born physically on earth. We find an account similar to the ancient Egyptian egg account among the Blong people.

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They’re an ethnic group that live in southern China. Zhu Tingni, in her book, Chinese Myths, summarizes the myth as follows on page 207, quote, when the world was created, there were no humans, just a giant gourd that stood on a mountain. Inside, it nurtured thousands of humans, but they could not get out until a swan flew up

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and pecked a hole in the thick skin, allowing them to exit. We’ve discussed this previously on the program, but the hulu, the Chinese gourd, was one of the Chinese symbols for the Divine Center, the Holy of Holies. And if you recall, the Mesopotamian Ark tablet, the Ark, which was a completely sealed circular boat, like a gourd, the Mesopotamian Noah Atrahasis,

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concealed human beings and he gathered up all kinds of animals and birds and he loaded them in two by two and then he sealed the door shut. It was a veritable Holy of Holies or cosmic egg out of which all life, including human beings, would later come. So it’s perfectly in keeping with what we see in the ancient world that the Chinese would attest that human beings originally existed in and eventually came out of the gourd.

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In today’s episode, I want to share with you some of the remarkable accounts that are given across the world that attest to this same doctrine that we human beings existed before we came to earth. There are a number of accounts that attest to this, a couple of which I’m going to share with you today. As I mentioned, the ancient Egyptians, especially during the middle kingdom, which was around 2000 BC, attested to the doctrine of a pre-earth existence.

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when they taught that God chose rulers in the egg. Now there’s gonna be more that I wanna say about this, but I’m gonna save that for our next episode. Now we also find evidence of the doctrine of a pre-earth existence show up in ancient Mesopotamia and among the Canaanites, but it doesn’t show up in an explicit way. It shows up in an implied way as  the necessary theological backdrop for understanding the tablet of destinies. Hopefully,

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you remember that, found among the ancient Mesopotamians and the decree of destinies issued by El and the divine council among the Canaanites. In the ancient world, the decreeing of destinies constituted one of the high gods most important privileges and responsibilities. In our next episode, we’re going to develop that a little bit more and I’m going to save our discussion on ancient Mesopotamians, Canaanites and Hebrews for our next episode. Each one of these accounts attest that

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while earth was in heaven’s embrace when the earth resided so physically close to heaven that the state of earth was virtually indistinguishable from heaven, a terrestrial paradise that we as people existed. Which is interesting because it goes hand in hand with how many of the ancients described that time. Many ancient peoples described earth in heaven’s embraces as a marriage or conjugal embrace. uh

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Procreative act necessary to produce offspring These accounts attest that people existed in that time in a pre-earth state and they attest to a pre-earth existence and these accounts tell us that  the needs and the desires of the people who existed in this pre-earth realm was what  actually led to the eventual split of heaven and earth  or

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as it’s commonly expressed in the Judeo-Christian tradition, when the earth fell, when earth fell away or moved physically away from heaven. What you’re going to learn down the line is not an exclusive Judeo-Christian teaching. In fact, the separation of heaven and earth is almost universally attested to across the world. From the ancient Egyptians to the Zuni of Western New Mexico,

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to the Mandanao people of the Philippines.  We definitely see the idea that people existed when earth was in heaven’s embrace in the Judeo-Christian tradition when we read in the Old Testament in Genesis chapter two that Adam and Eve existed before earth fell away from heaven. We’ll get into the intricacies of the Judeo-Christian account in another episode, but for the purposes of this episode, the Genesis account indicates like we’re gonna see elsewhere.

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that the needs and the desires and choices, in this case, Adam and Eve made, were what led to the split between heaven and earth. So let’s start in India. This myth is found among the Minyung people of northeastern India. The Minyung are an ancient tribal people who share ancestry with the Ande people who occupied the Siong Valley, which is up in the Himalayans.

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Demographers estimate that about 27,000 Andean Minyong people continue to inhabit those ancestral lands today. So the account that I’m going to read comes from pages 48 to 55 of L.1. Verrier’s book, Myths of the Northeast Frontier of India, which you can find on Internet Archive if you’re interested. Now L.1. Verrier was a British-born Indian anthropologist who at one time actually worked for Mahatma Gandhi.

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and some of the nationalists, but he split from them because they were interested in assimilating these tribes that were up in the Himalayans, whom he worked with. As an anthropologist, Verrier visited the Ande-Minyang people in the Himalayan mountains, and then he recorded their myths. And this is what he said of the Ande-Minyang people. And this is found in the introduction, quote, Siong, the happiest of the Northeast Frontier divisions, is the home of

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bright colors, lovely weaving, dancing, singing, and enchanting people, formerly known collectively by the Asmunzi word, Abor, which means independent, but who now call themselves Adi  or Hillman. In the preface, Verrier notes that these people were so isolated that, quote, very few myths show traces of missionary teaching. But he does note that there are a few traces of Indian teachings that echoed.

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the Ramayana. He concludes though, quote, on the whole, the tales are remarkably original and seem to be genuine products of tribal creativity and imagination. Despite what Verrier just said there, as you’re about to see, the Minyung myth of heaven and earth captures a stubborn bit that we see around the world. On page 10 of the preface, he says the following of his translation process, quote,

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My custom was to translate the stories on the spot as they were narrated or interpreted to me. I have translated them literally as if I was translating poetry. That is to say, I have inserted no new symbol or image and I’ve tried to avoid words which, though neutral in themselves, carry associations alien to the tribal consciousness. I have never tried to make the stories intelligible or attractive to my readers.

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Okay, so with that, let’s take a look at the Minyong myth of heaven and earth as it’s recorded by Verrier found on page 48. I’m going to read it all the way through once and then we’ll walk through it. The myth is recorded as follows, quote, SETI is the earth, MILO is the sky, the earth is a woman, the sky is a man. These two married and when they came together, we use men and animals held a cabang

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to consider how they could save themselves from being crushed between them. Sedi Dior, one of the greatest of the Wuyus, caught hold of the sky so that he fled far up into the heavens, leaving the earth behind. Before I break this down, I wanna point out that, like we see elsewhere, the Minyong tell us that during this time, the first time when earth and heaven were together, that there was no physical death and animals could talk.

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On page 17 of the introduction, Verrier tells us that the Minyung taught this of the first time, quote, at the beginning of time, men never died and all living creatures and plants could talk and understand each other. I just wanted to point that out so that you can see how Minyung belief about the first time is in line with what we see elsewhere. Okay, so let’s take a look at the Minyung myth of heaven and earth from the beginning.

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The first line says, Sedi is the earth, Milo is the sky, the earth is a woman, the sky is a man. So note here how like we see elsewhere in the ancient world, heaven, which is referred to here as the sky and earth are associated with the male and a female god. Heaven is associated with Milo, the Minyong male high god, and earth is associated with Sedi, the Minyong female high goddess. The Minyong tell us in another myth,

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that these two gods often given the conjoined name, Sedimelo, created the earth together. What we see here is just like what we see in ancient Mesopotamia where on is the word for sky and key is the word for earth. And where on is also the name given to the high god and where key is also the name given to the high goddess. Like I mentioned earlier, the ancients often associated the closeness between heaven and earth

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to the closeness of God and his wife. And the Minyung do the same thing here. In the very next line, when they say, quote, these two, so this is heaven and earth, Seti and Milo, married. You know, what tends to come after one is married? Offspring, children. So see how the ancients connect the closeness between heaven and earth to the closeness of God and his wife and marriage. So we would expect,

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to see next children. Let’s continue. Quote, these two married and when they came together, we use men and animals held a cabang. Now, guess what we use are? We use our spirit beings, spirit beings who occupy a liminal realm of spirits. The word liminal comes from the Latin word liman, which means threshold.

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So the Minyang believe these spirit beings which they attribute human-like characteristics to, occupy a state or space that is an in-between transitional space or realm. A doorway is a good example of a liminal space. It represents the in-between space between two rooms. So the Minyang believe the Wuyus exist in a space between the human world and the divine world. They are not fully human, but they are not fully divine.

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They are in between because remember in this myth, the we use occupy the space between heaven and earth. In the Smith, the meeting tell us that the we use the spirit beings held a cabang. Now, if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you can probably guess what a cabang is. Not even knowing a thing about the men and young people, because that’s how remarkable the stubborn bits are. A cabang is a council meeting. Yes.

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Among the Minyung, the Kabang refers to a traditional village council meeting made up of elders or village leaders. In general, it refers to an assembly of wise and knowledgeable persons. So here the Minyung tell us that when heaven and earth were close together, when God and his wife were married, the spirit beings there held a council meeting. All of this should be reminding you of the council of the gods that is talked about across the ancient world.

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According to the Minyang, why did the Wuyi use the spirit beings in the liminal realm of the spirits hold a kabang, a council meeting? What was the problem for which they needed to hold a council? Well, let’s keep reading. Quote, these two married and when they came together, Wuyi used men and animals held a kabang to consider how they could save themselves from being crushed between them.

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This is interesting. The Minyang tell us that the spirit beings held a council meeting to, quote, consider how they could save themselves from being crushed between them. This is interesting because the Minyang are telling us here that the spirit beings didn’t like being stuck in this liminal transitional place between heaven and earth. They described it as being crushed. So what do they do? They hold a kabang.

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council meeting to see if they can come up with a way to get out of this situation, this liminal transitional place. And what happens? Well, we surmise that the spirit beings came up with a plan in the council because the next thing they tell us is that one of the greatest of the we use, one of the greatest of the spirit beings. So take note here that these spirit beings are a varying greatness.

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which is also indicated in the instruction to Mary Cari where we read that some of the people in the egg were chosen to be rulers, whereas others were not. A spirit being by the name of Sedi Dior emerges from the council and does something interesting. Damien Young tell us, quote, Sedi Dior, one of the greatest of the Wiyus, caught hold of the sky and beat him so that he fled far up into the heavens, leaving the earth behind.

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From this, we surmise that the council decided that the best thing to do so that they would not be stuck in this crushing liminal transitional space between heaven and earth was to force heaven and earth apart. And the text tells us that one of the greatest of the Wiyus, Sedi Dior, did just that. The Minyung tell us that Sedi Dior, quote, caught hold of the sky and beat him.

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so that he fled far up into the heavens, leaving the earth behind. So here we see that Sedi Dior did something to cause heaven and earth to split apart, which is symbolized in the text as Sedi Dior beating heaven so that it would flee far into the heavens, causing there to be a great divide between heaven and earth. At this point, we have to ask, why did the Council of Spirit Beings

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come to the conclusion that separating heaven from earth was the best thing to do in this situation. We’ll get into that down the line, but the answer to that question is also the answer to why we human beings are on earth. So it’s an important one. Although this myth is given in min-young cultural terms, note how it mentions the same major events as the account given in the Judeo-Christian account found in the Old Testament in Genesis.

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In that account, the story takes place in the same setting in the first time when heaven and earth were close together, when earth was a garden of Eden. At that time, two beings, Adam and Eve, although not spirit beings in the same sense as the we use, do something to cause earth to fall away from heaven. They partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In traditional Judeo-Christian circles,

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Eve’s decision to partake of the fruit is generally interpreted as a really bad decision because it caused earth to fall from heaven’s embrace. When earth was separated from God, a lot of bad things started to happen. You got disease and death and aging started to occur and the option to sin became a reality. In fact, St. Augustine of Hippo argued between the fourth and fifth centuries BC that what Eve did was so terrible

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that she was single-handedly responsible for causing every single human being to be born in sin. As you’re gonna see here among the Minyang of Northeastern India, and as you’re gonna see in the rest of the myths that we discussed today, the Minyang offer up a very different account of what happened before the fall. The Minyang tell us a couple of very interesting things. First of all, they tell us that the choice to sever heaven and earth

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was made by a council of spirit beings, an assembly of wise, knowledgeable leaders. In other words, they tell us that the decision to bring about the Fall was a council decision, not the sole decision of an individual spirit or person. Second, they tell us that the decision to bring about the Fall was intentional, it was planned.

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not that it was a decision made by someone in a moment of weakness. Third, the Minyung tell us that the council ultimately decided to bring about the fall, seeing it as the most effective way to end the quote, crushing liminal state in which they found themselves. In other words, the Minyung suggests that initiating the fall of the earth was necessary, perhaps even essential for their transition out of that condition.

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In this light, it was a wise decision made by a wise council of beings to bring about the fall. And finally, the Minyung tell us, like we see in the Genesis account, that the responsibility to bring about the fall was given to one being. But unlike the Genesis account, the Minyung tell us that the being that did that was, quote, one of the greatest of the we-yus, one of the greatest.

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One of the greatest of all the spirit beings that existed between heaven and earth. The Min Young tell us that the being who brought about the fall wasn’t worst of all the beings. No, they tell us that the being that brought about the fall of earth was one of the greatest. The Min Young people give us a lot to think about here. And what’s more, the Min Young people aren’t the only people in the world who give us this account, which I’m going to get to in just a second.

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But for the purposes of this episode, the Minyang people attest that during the first time when earth was in heaven’s embraced, spirit beings existed in a liminal spiritual state between heaven and earth before human beings were born on earth. In another Minyang myth, one that takes place before the earth itself has been properly created, found on page 18.

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This realm is referred to by the Minyung as the Sky Village. If you remember, and it’s been a while, so don’t worry if you don’t, we saw a similar account among the Maori people in Polynesia. I’m gonna recount the myth again so you can see the similarities. So in this myth, heaven is associated with the male god Rangi and earth is associated with the female goddess Papatuanuku.

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This account was first recorded by Sir George Gray. He was a British explorer who lived among the Maori people and he learned the Maori language and then he translated their myths into English. The account that I’m going to give you is the earliest known written account of the myth of Rangi and Papatuanuku. It’s found in his book, Polynesian Mythology, an ancient traditional history of the New Zealand race as furnished by their priests and chiefs.

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published in 1855. If you’d like to read the myth for yourself, you can find it on Internet Archive. The myth begins on page one titled, The Children of Heaven and Earth.  So take note that the focus of this account is on the offspring of heaven and earth or Rengi and Papatuanuku. And I’m sharing it here to illustrate the belief in a pre-earth existence. The account begins, quote,

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Men had but one pair of primitive ancestors. They sprang from the vast heaven that exists above us and from the earth which lies beneath us.  According to the traditions of our race, Renge and Papa, or heaven and earth, were the source from which in the beginning all things originated.  Darkness then rested upon the heaven and upon the earth and they still both claved together for they had not

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yet been rent apart.” Note here how the Maui people attest that in the beginning, heaven and earth were very close together. Or as they say it here, quote, they both clave together for they had not yet been rent apart. So note that the setting of this account takes place when heaven and earth are very close to each other. The account continues, quote, and the children they had begotten

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were thinking among themselves. What might be the difference between darkness and light? Here the Maori clearly attest that when earth was in heaven’s embrace, Renge and Papa Tuanku gave birth to children. They say, quote, and the children they had begotten. Now Renge and Papa’s children are concerned. And what are they concerned about?  They’re concerned about knowing the difference between

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quote, darkness and light, which reminds me of the Genesis account where it speaks about knowing the difference between good and evil. The text reads quote, they knew that beings had multiplied and increased. So it seems like a lot of children were born. Let’s continue. Quote, and they knew that beings had multiplied and increased and yet light had never broken upon them, but it ever continued dark. So uh

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Rangi and Papa’s offspring are concerned at this time because quote, light had never broken upon them, but it ever continued dark. Now I’m not sure quite how to interpret this, but at a minimum, the Maori, like the Minyung in India, tell us that the children that were born when heaven and earth were close together were not happy with the situation that they were in. So what did the Maori tell us happened next? The account continues.

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quote, at last the beings who had been begotten by heaven and earth, worn out by the continued darkness, consulted amongst themselves. So note here that although the Maori don’t say the children held a cabang or a council meeting to decide how to deal with the darkness, they do say that the children, quote, consulted amongst each others. So there was definitely some sort of group discussion going on about

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what to do about their unsatisfactory situation. The account continues, quote, at last the beings who had been begotten by heaven and earth, worn out by the continued darkness, consulted amongst themselves, saying, let us now determine what we should do with Rengi and Papa, whether it would be better to slay them or to rend them apart. Now listen to what happens. Then spoke

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Tumutuanga, the fiercest of the children of heaven and earth. It is well, let us slay them. So here one of Rangi and Papa’s children comes forward and says, hey, let’s kill Rangi and Papa. Note how the Maori described Tumutuanga as one of the fiercest of Rangi and Papa’s children.  After this, another one of Rangi and Papa’s children speaks up.

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Tanei Mahuta, the account continues, quote, then spake Tanei Mahuta, the father of forests and out of all things that inhabit them or that are constructed from trees, nay, not so, it is better to rend them apart and to let heaven stand far above us and the earth lie under our feet. Let the sky become as a stranger to us, but the earth remain close to us

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as our nursing mother. So here we have two of Rangi’s children offering up two different plans to solve the predicament the children are in. Tumatawenga’s plan is to kill Rangi and Papa and Tani Mahuta’s plan is to separate heaven and earth to cause earth to fall away from heaven, just like we see in the Minyong account. The Maori account continues, quote, the brothers all consented to this proposal.

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What’s said right here definitely has a council feel to it. It says that Tani Mahuta’s brothers, Rengi and Papa’s other sons, quote, consented to the proposal to Tani Mahuta’s plan to separate heaven and earth. They did not consent to Tumatawanga’s plan to kill their parents. The account continues, quote, hence also these sayings of old are found in our prayers, darkness, darkness, light.

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light, the seeking, the searching in chaos, in chaos. These signified the way in which the offspring of heaven and earth sought for some mode of dealing with their parents so that human beings might increase and live. So why are they doing this? The account says, quote, so that human beings might increase and live.

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See, Rangi and Papa’s children exist in a pre-earth realm, but they’re not yet human, because they haven’t been born on earth yet. So we assume that Rangi and Papa’s children are in a similar state as the Wiyus in the Minyang account as spirit beings, children in spirit form, children who don’t have human bodies yet, which Rangi and Papa’s children seem to really, really want, because they’re trying to figure out what they can do so that they can get out of the darkness that they’re in and become born

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human beings on earth. And the Maori tell us that the plan that they agreed to was the plan to separate heaven from earth to cause the fall. This puts an entirely different twist on the fall, doesn’t it? Because it tells us that Rengi and Papa’s children decided to separate heaven and earth to cause the fall precisely so that human beings could be born.

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The next part of this account says this even more straightforward. The account continues, quote, So also these sayings of old time, the multitude, the length, signified the multitude of the thoughts of the children of heaven and earth and the length of the time they considered whether they should slay their parents that human beings might be called into existence. For it was in this manner that they talked

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and consulted amongst themselves. This is a pretty amazing account because here the Maori tell us directly that the children of Rangi and Papa existed before they were born in a pre-earth realm and that in that realm they weren’t very happy with their situation there. And it appears from what we just read that in the state that they were in when heaven and earth were close together, human beings could not be called.

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into existence as human beings. So what they were really trying to do in these meetings with each other was decide what needed to be done so that human beings could be born. I mean, they tell us as much when they tell us that Rangi and Papa’s children discussed at length what to do, quote, that human beings might be called into existence. This account, like the Minyung account,

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indicates that the decision to separate heaven from earth to cause the fall wasn’t made by one person in a moment of weakness. It was an intentional decision agreed upon by a lot of Rangi and Papa’s children, spirit children, we surmise, who lived in a pre-earth realm before they came to earth. Now, at this point in the account, a couple of Rangi and Papa’s children try to rend heaven and earth apart, but they aren’t able to do it.

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The account continues, quote, then at last slowly up rises Ta-Neh-Mah-Hu-Tah, the God and father of forests, of birds and of insects, and he struggles with his parents in vain. He strives to rend them apart with his hands and arms. Low he pauses. His head is now firmly planted on his mother, the earth. His feet he raises up.

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and rests against his father the skies. He strains his back and limbs with mighty effort. Far, far beneath him, he presses down on the earth. Far, far above him, he thrusts up the sky. Here we see that the responsibility to bring about the fall is given to one individual, but

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The account attests that it was a decision that was agreed upon by a council or a group or perhaps most of Rengi and Papa’s children. Once Tani Mahuta separated heaven from earth, causing the earth to fall away from heaven, the account continues, quote, no sooner was heaven rent from earth than the multitude of human beings were discovered, whom they had begotten and who had hitherto lain concealed

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between the bodies of Rengi and Papa. So what is the culminating result of the fall? Well, the Maori tell us that quote, no sooner was heaven rent from earth than the multitude of human beings were discovered whom they had begotten and who had hitherto lain concealed between the bodies of Rengi and Papa.

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And this account makes it perfectly clear that the people who existed between Rengi and Papa in the pre-earth realm were the children begotten by Rengi and Papa and that it was these children who appeared on earth as a quote, multitude of human beings. For the purposes of this episode, this account, like the rulers in the egg in the ancient Egyptian account found in the instruction for Merakare and the account

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found in China of the giant gourd that harbored thousands of people and the Minyung account in India that spoke of spirit beings between heaven and earth. Here the Maori attest to the same thing, that we humans existed in some pre-earth realm before we were born here on earth as human beings. We find a similar account in a completely different hemisphere on a completely different continent

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among the Celts who occupied the British Isles in Ireland between 1200 and 100 BC. Now this account is found in John Reese’s book, Lecture on the Origin and Growth of Religion as Illustrated by Celtic Heathendom. We get a lot of fun titles on this program, which is also available on Internet Archive. John Reese was the first professor of Celtic at Oxford University.

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and he passed away in 1915. The Celtic account that I’m going to read starts on page 669. Quote, in the beginning, earth and heaven were great world giants, and they were the parents of a numerous offspring. So note how heaven and earth have a lot of children here. The heaven in those days lay upon the earth. So again, the context here is the same context that we’ve been talking about when heaven and earth were

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close together. And their children crowded between them were unhappy. So note how this account also attests that God and God’s wives numerous offspring exist as beings between heaven and earth in a pre-earth realm and that they’re not too happy. And without light as was also their mother so she and they took counsel together. So note how we’re seeing counseling here again.

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against heaven and one of his sons who was bolder than the others undertook shamefully to mutilate heaven.”  So this son mutilates heaven, severs his genitals. This causes heaven and earth to separate, which causes the earth to fall. So it causes the fall. And then after this, the account tells us that children were born on earth. The account reads, quote,

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Some of the children of earth and heaven were born bright beings or gods who mostly loved the light and the upper air. Again, this Celtic account attests that human beings, the children of God and his wife, existed in a pre-earth realm before they were born on earth.  If you’re familiar with Greek and Roman mythology, you probably noticed a lot of similarities between this Celtic myth

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and the account of the Greeks. In the Greek myth, Uranus, the god associated with heaven, and his wife Gaia, the goddess associated with earth, conceived 12 sons.  Six of Uranus and Gaia’s 12 sons are described as terrible monsters, which as we’ve discussed on the program are generally symbolic conceptions, kind of like Tiamat in ancient Mesopotamia, of rebellious

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malevolent children. The following is said of these monstrous sons, starting in line 154 of Hesiod’s theogony, quote, For all the children that were born of earth and heaven, these were the most terrible, and they were hated by their own father from the first. So what does the high god Uranus do with these terrible malevolent sons? Well,

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Hesiod tells us that as soon as they’re born in the primordial realm, he sent them to a place inside Gaia, who represents the earth, which separated them or locked them away from the rest of his children, where they were not allowed to mingle with the rest of his children. The text reads, quote, and he, this is Uranus, used to hide them all away in a secret place of earth so soon as each was born.

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and would not suffer them to come up into the light, which is where the rest of his children were.  Gaia suffers immense pain because of this. And the text reads, quote, vast earth Gaia groaned within being straightened. So what does Gaia do? Well, she meets with her sons and she tells them of her plan. And her plan is to sever Uranus’s genitals, which are

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tying heaven and earth together. And her sons are terrified by this plan.  But one of Uranus’s and Gaius’s sons steps forward and he says that he will do it, which of course will cause the earth to fall away from heaven. After Gaius shares her plan, the text says the following, so she said she be in Gaius, but fear seized them all her sons.

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and none of them uttered a word. But great Kronos, the wily, took courage and answered his dear mother, Mother, I will undertake to do this deed.” So here, like we see in the Minyung and Maori accounts, after a council or a family meeting, the great Kronos, which is how the text describes him, takes on the task of separating heaven and earth.

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Just like Setti Dior, the greatest of the Wiyus separated heaven and earth in the Minyong account. And just like Ta-Nehisi Mahuta, the father of forest, trees, which if you’ve been listening to the program for a while, marks him as a royal being, separates heaven and earth in the Maori account. In all three of these accounts, the individual who takes on the task of separating heaven and earth is not only celebrated

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as a cultural hero, we’re told that that individual was one of the greatest of God’s children, which is in stark contrast to the way Eve, who caused the separation of heaven and earth in the Judeo-Christian account, is traditionally portrayed. Instead of being praised for bringing about the fall, which in the Maori account was described as an action necessary to bring about the birth of children on earth,

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Eve is traditionally maligned for doing the same thing, which is interesting because in the Genesis account, in Genesis chapter two, God brings the animals and fowls of the air to Adam to see what name he will give them. Now remember, in the ancient world, names are not merely arbitrary labels. They carried deep significance because they expressed the true nature or character of that being. Genesis chapter two, verse 19 reads, and this is the King James version.

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quote, and out of the ground, the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. So when we read in Genesis chapter three, verse 20, that Adam gave his wife the name Eve, we know that the name Eve means something. It tells us about her true nature or character. Let’s read what verse 20 says, quote, and Adam called his wife’s name Eve.

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And why did he call his wife’s name Eve? What did Eve mean? The verse continues, quote, because she was the mother of all living. In Hebrew, Eve is Chava. Elkat’s commentary indicates that Chava means life  in its substantive form and life producer in its participle form. And this is interesting because here we see the Bible directly connect Eve to motherhood.

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the ability to produce children, which according to the Maori is exactly the reason why earth needed to be separated from heaven in the first place so that Renge and Papa’s children who were conceived in the primordial realm could be born on earth. Or as the Maori themselves say it, quote, so that human beings might be called into existence. The Cambridge Bible for schools and colleges

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says the following of Eve, quote, Eve, Hebrew Chava, meaning that is living or life. The man,  Adam, is represented as calling his wife by this name because she was the mother of the whole human race. So here we see that Eve  in the Judeo-Christian account is associated with the very issue that according to the Maori account,

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necessitated the fall in the first place so that human beings could be born on the earth.  And what’s even more, Eve is the one who actually fulfills the role of bringing human beings into the world. The entire human race comes through her. So note how Eve fulfills both roles in the Judeo-Christian account. The role of splitting heaven and earth so human beings can be born.

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and then actually giving her body so that those beings are born.  Theologically, that’s pretty amazing. It seems to me that Eve must have had a pretty darn strong conviction of how important it was to come to this earth to have been willing to perform those roles in the Judeo-Christian account. But as I mentioned earlier, instead of Eve being praised for bringing about the fall like Kronos

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Tanimahuta and Sedi Dior were, which enabled the birth of human beings on earth. A point that’s captured in Eve’s  very name, Eve has been maligned. Perhaps, the Greeks, Maori and Minyang suggest, there is more to the story of the fall. The events that led up to it and the motivation behind it, then is presently provided in the Bible. And if what

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the Greeks, Maori and Minyoung are telling us is true, then in the pre-earth life Eve  must have been one of the greatest of God’s children, not  one of the worst. Instead of being castigated for bringing about the fall, she should be praised for making it possible for each one of us to move out of the liminal transitional space in the pre-earth life. Whereas these accounts tell us

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we were pretty darn unhappy or unsatisfied with our condition there. And we knew it was important to come to earth to be born as human beings, which suggests that there is a significant purpose for why we need to be born on earth and for why we are here. If we change continents again, and we turn to North America to the Zuni tribe who inhabited

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and continue to inhabit the Zuni River Valley in what today is western New Mexico and eastern Arizona. We find an account that similarly attests to a pre-earth existence, the separation of heaven and earth, and the subsequent birth of human beings. A scholar by the name of Frank Hamilton Cushing, an American ethnologist who lived with the Zuni between 1879

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in 1884 recorded this account in his book, Outlines of Zuni Creation Miss, which were first published in 1896. This account begins with the creation of heaven and earth out of the waters of chaos. Starting on page 379, the account reads, and low in the heat of his light. His here refers to the Zuni creator, the sun father.

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who from his symbolic link to the sun is a radiant being of light. These waters of the sea, so I was talking about the waters of chaos, grew green and scums rose upon them, waxing wide and weighty until behold, they became mother earth and the all covering father sky. From the lying together of these twain upon the great world waters,

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So note how after heaven and earth were created, they quote, lie together. Heaven and earth were very close together. And also know while we’re here that the Zuni also attest like we see all across the world that heaven and earth were created out of the quote, great waters.  The waters of chaos and chaotic matter that this account tells us continued to surround heaven and earth even after they were created. Indicating that when heaven and earth quote,

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lied together, they were like a cosmic bubble in the midst of the chaotic waters, which is very in keeping with the stubborn bits we’ve discussed on the program. I continue, quote, from the lying together of these twain upon the great world waters, so vitalizing terrestrial life was conceived. So you get the picture here of an earth in a paradisal state when it was close to heaven.

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Then the account talks about the primordial realm where the human beings and all the creatures lived before they were born on earth. This realm is referred to by the Zuni as the quote fourfold world or the fourth world. The account continues quote, whence began all beings of earth men and the creatures in the fourfold womb of the world. Note how the Zuni refer to this primordial world as a womb, which makes sense because

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It’s the place out of which human beings will be born into this world. Now listen to what happens next. Quote, thereupon the earth by the repulsed the sky father growing big and sinking deep into the embrace of the waters below. So here we have another account of the fall.  And this account gives the strong impression of earth’s falling away from heaven.

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when it says that Earth  sunk, quote, deep into the embrace of the waters below. The account continues, quote, thus separating from the sky father in the embrace of the waters above. This is a pretty fantastic account because it gives us a real feel for the physical movement, the cosmic movement of the Earth away from heaven into another region, a lower region of the cosmos.

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So now that the earth is separated from heaven, the account continues, quote, as a woman forbodes evil for her firstborn, even so did the earth mother forbode, long withholding from birth her myriad progeny and meantime seeking counsel with the sky father. How, said they one to another, shall our children be brought forth

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know one place from another even by the white light of the Sun Father.  Here we see that the Earth Mother, who in other myths is the High Goddess, is worried that her quote, myriad progeny will be corrupted when they’re born into this world. So she counsels with her husband, the Sky Father, over what they should do. And it’s pretty neat what they decide to do. And it’s actually critical

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to the entire theology of the ancient tradition. The account says, quote, thus as a man and woman spoke they one to the other, they’re looking down at the earth that had been created. And the earth mother says, quote, for therein chiefly shall nestle our children mankind. Now listen to what they do so that their children will not be corrupted.

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while on earth. Quote, for therein chiefly shall nestle our children mankind for warmth in thy coldness. Low even the trees on high mountains near the clouds and the sky father crouched low toward the earth mother for warmth and protection. Now it might be a little bit difficult to follow what the Zuni are saying here, but it’s important. So here the Zuni tell us that what God and his wife did

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to ensure that their children would not be corrupted while on earth was to place, quote, trees on high mountains near the clouds. So visualize this in your mind, a very high mountain with a tree or trees on the top touching the clouds. The Zuni then tell us that the sky father, God, crouched, quote, low toward the earth mother.

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So now visualize this in your mind, a very high mountain with a tree or trees on top touching the clouds and God crouching low towards the top of that mountain. Do you see what’s happening here? On the top of this mountain, heaven and earth are once again touching. The Zuni are telling us that what God and his wife did was create a way for heaven and earth to reconnect even though they had been split apart.

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This mountain should remind you of the Garden of Eden in the Judeo-Christian tradition, which we learned in the Old Testament in Ezekiel 28, verses 13 to 14, was elevated like a mountain. The text reads, and this is the King James Version, quote, Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God, thou wast upon the holy mountain of God.

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I don’t have time to develop this more in today’s episode, but this mountain will be the core focus of this podcast for many episodes to come. Just know while we’re here that the Zuni in New Mexico are attesting to the same thing that the Hebrews attested to in the Old Testament.  And if you’ve been paying close attention, you might’ve picked up that the Maori hero Tani Mahuta used his body, which was likened to a tree.

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to push heaven and earth apart from each other, but which also kept them connected like the tree on the top of the mountain in the Zuni account. Tuck all of that stuff away. In the Zuni account, now that God and his wife have prepared this mountain to keep their children from corruption, they’re now ready to allow their children to be born into this world. Before this happens though,

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The Zuni, like we’ve seen in the other accounts we’ve talked about today, tell us how unhappy their children were in this pre-earth realm or fourth world, where they tell us that their children were not fully formed beings yet. The account symbolically depicts their children as larval animals or insects who have not been fully developed and who need to be born into this world for full development to take place. Which by the way is a clue.

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for why we human beings need to come to earth. The text reads, quote, in the nethermost of the four cave wombs of the world, the seed of men and the creatures took form and increased.  Even as within eggs in warm places worms speedily appear, which growing presently burst their shells and become as many happen birds, tadpoles or serpents.

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So did men and all creatures grow manifold and multiply in many kinds. Thus the lowermost womb did become overfilled with beings.  Everywhere were unfinished creatures crawling like reptiles one over another in filth and black darkness, crowding thickly together and treading each other, insomuch that loud became their murmurings and lamentations until many among them

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sought to escape, growing wiser and more manlike. Here we see that the people in the pre-earth existence wanted to leave that existence precisely so that they could quote grow wiser and more manlike. The Zuni tell us as clear as possible that the reason that they wanted to come to earth was so that they could grow and become quote wiser.

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indicating that this earth life or earth experience is a place we come so that we can grow, develop, mature, and gain wisdom and progress as God’s children. Something that we apparently couldn’t do fully in the pre-earth realm.  This is quite interesting because this same thing is also suggested in the Genesis account when the evil serpent in the Garden of Eden tries to convince Eve to partake of the fruit and he tells her,

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the following in Genesis chapter three, verse five. And this is the King James version, quote, for God does know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be as God’s knowing good and evil. Here the serpent tells Eve that if she’ll eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which we know will cause the earth to separate and fall away from heaven,

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which will then allow her to experience earth as a human being, she’ll gain knowledge. Knowledge of the difference between good and evil, which is the name God actually gives the tree.  And she will be, the text tells us, quote, as the gods. In other words, those who are gods know the difference between good and evil. And if Eve comes to earth and learns the difference between good and evil, she too

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can become like the gods, suggesting that this earth experience is absolutely essential, critical to acquiring the knowledge necessary to become like the gods. And this suggests that human destiny is as grand as anyone could ever imagine. But the knowledge needed to become like the gods is dependent on having a mortal experience on a fallen earth.

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So no wonder the Zuni children were clamoring to escape the pre-earth realm. So they could quote, grow wiser. At this point, the Zuni account tells us that human beings begin to emerge in the fifth world, this earth. I’m going to save how they do that for a future episode, because how they go about entering this world is very important. It’s an important point I want to make. I’m going to do that in a future episode.

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We’ll talk all about this more in the coming episodes, but for the purposes of this episode, these accounts attest that God and his wife are the parents of a divine family. Children who were conceived in a primordial realm in the cosmic egg or the great gourd or when heaven and earth were close together. Together they attest that we human beings existed as conscious beings in a primordial realm before we were born on earth.

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and that we needed to come to this fallen world to gain greater knowledge of the difference between light and darkness, good and evil, wisdom that the Judeo-Christian account tells us will make us like the gods. That’s quite a destiny. Speaking of knowledge, I’ll leave you with the words of William Shakespeare, knowledge is the wing wherewith we fly to heaven.  I’m Jack Logan.

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You’ve been listening to the Ancient Tradition.  A Wonk Media Production.